Adios Smokers
Via Reuters:
CHICAGO (Reuters) – The owner of a Michigan company who forced his employees to either quit smoking or quit their jobs said on Wednesday he also wants to tell fat workers to lose weight or else.
A ban on tobacco use—whether at home or at the workplace—led four employees to quit their jobs last week at Okemos, Michigan-based Weyco Inc., which handles insurance claims.
Wow, this guy’s on a roll! First smokers and now “fat workers.”
I heard about this on NPR but I thought it was a different company? Is this catching on all over the place?
Not a bad idea. Why should a business owner have to offer insurance benefits to someone who doesn’t take care of themselves? I was thinking he could still employ smokers and tubby folks without providing insurance, but that sounds like it would be illegal due to the discrimination involved.
What about people that spend too much time in the sun with no protection? Or people that have a history of heart disease in their family? High cholesteral? I can see the benefits to the employer but it’s going to be a hard case to win…
I have to admit, I was really surprised that whole course of action was legal. Randy, I think this is catching on (in fact, I think I may have heard the same NPR clip about another company).
I’m with Randy on this one. Personally, I find that I eat horribly sometimes, not all the time. I don’t smoke (except for the occasional pipe, Tolkien style) and I don’t drink more than a healthy amount. I don’t think that insurance should be restricted from anyone who doesn’t already fit a healthy profile. I know tons of people that seem to be fit but really aren’t. How about all those Atkins dieters? It is pretty well known that this is a diet for vanity’s sake and not in the interest of health, yet it is the hugest diet fad to come across since fat content was mysteriously linked to people getting fat (I’m being sarcastic because, as in all things, moderated intake of fats, carbs, proteins, fiber are required for decent health). I saw this guy on a news program within the last few days…perhaps on Countdown with Keith Olbermann? I didn’t get much of a decent impression of the guy. He seemed to be worried more about money than health, really.
The guy says in the article that “if you’re obese, you’re protected”. In other words, it would be impossible to subjectively determine that someone isn’t fit enough to insure, fire that person, and get away with it. There’s a huge difference between identifying a smoker and identifying someone who is generally “unhealthy” or prone to future health issues based on genetics. That’s why his policy is a good one when it comes to smoking. Smoking = unhealthy = high risk to insure. It’s pretty much black and white. It doesn’t seem like an employer could go much farther than that for reasons such as the ones Randy pointed out.
I would hate to see someone lose their job for smoking the occasional pipe like Cas or having a couple cigarattes at the bar every so often. Hopefully, the tests can tell the difference between these folks and a habitual smoker.
And overall, it’s great to promote fitness, so his ideas for incentives to exercise seem like good ones. He’s never quoted as saying he intends to fire fat people and in fact he actually acknowledges that he couldn’t even if he wanted to.
nope, they’re testing for nicotene, period, so if you had a cigarette at the bar last weekend, as many people do, you’re out on your ass w/ the pack-a-day folks.
there is no way this is legal & he is going to get sued & i hope it freaking breaks his company. what a dick. what’s next- following employees around to make sure they’re practicing safe sex? using their seatbelts? riding your bike w/ a helmet?
this is total bullshit.
perhaps if the nicotine level is low enough, they will know that the person is not a true “smoker”.
i think it’s very possible that, if sued, this guy could win. smoking is different from all of the examples you cited in that it essentially GUARANTEES health problems. if you’ve ever tried to buy a sizeable life insurance policy, you know that they ask lots of questions to assess their risk in insuring you. if you are a chain-smoking hemophiliac skydiver from Haiti, they can legally deny you coverage or make your premiums outrageously high. if you bought health care insurance independently (not as part of a group policy provided by your employer) they could ask the same questions with the same potential outcome. so he has a lot to work with there. (maybe Jeff can comment if he’s out there) it would be interesting if and when he gets sued.
oh, and when his premiums go up as a result of his overweight, smoking employee needing medical care that could have been prevented via healthier habits, he probably thinks, “what a dick”.
There’s no question that smoking is one of the most risky habits one could have (aside from being a hemophiliac skydiver from Haiti). As Tony puts it this habit “GUARANTEES health problems.” But if this guy gets sued and wins a case on this subject my guess is it will be used by others to purpose restrictions on overweight, high cholesterol, or other generally unhealthy lifestyle decisions.
There’s a lot of studies out there that suggest some Americans daily intake of red meat nearly guarantees heart disease. Or constantly hanging your arm out the window with no UV protection guarantees skin cancer. A swift lawyer armed with the right statistics could probably pull a great argument relating smoking to other unhealthy habits and persuade a jury in no time.
Think about this. Joe doesn’t get along with his boss Bob. Bob wants to fire him but can’t because of union restrictions. Joe is overweight. Bob fires him because of his unhealthy lifestyle. Joe tries to prosecute his former employer but Bobs high priced lawyers argue that Case no. 403 “Employer v. Smoker” clearly states that firing on grounds of “unhealthy lifestyle choice” is in Bobs legal means. The judge and jury agree. Joe loses is job and the case.
A case like this could give the little guy less and the big guy more. For that reason, I don’t think its right. I also don’t think it’s right for my tax dollars to go to some fat-ass-meat-eating-smoker’s Medicare plan when he/she turns 65 and is cancer ridden. Then I think that same fat-ass is someone’s Mom, Dad, or Sister and it’s only money. Man, if everybody just ate vegan and stopped smoking we’d be in a much better world.
On a side note: Kim, you quit smoking years ago. It’s time to stop defending it…
Yeah, the case would be a toss up – and a union employee would probably have high-priced lawyers too -but if the ruling was in favor of the employer it could really open a pandora’s box against employees. However, Bob’s lawyers would have a hell of a time conclusively proving that Joe’s lifestyle was sufficienly unhealthy to warranty firing him.
I still think smoking is a special case, though. Why is it that the life insurance company always asks if you’re a smoker, but never if you eat meat or how much time you spend in the sun? It’s likely that a precedent could be set that smoking and smoking ONLY is grounds to discriminate against someone.
I mentioned above the possibility of having the right to deny coverage to an employee that smokes, but not having the right to fire him. Maybe that’s the answer.
Kim quit?
shut up, cas! :)
i will never stop defending smoking or smokers.
until i see meat-eaters getting persecuted w/ the same sort of viciousness.
oh, & smoking does NOT guarantee health problems. it’s a 1 in 3 chance for smokers to develop health problems related to smoking. i’ll take those odds. or to paraphrase fran liebowitz, people think if you don’t smoke & wear sunscreen that you’re gonna live forever. i’m not one of the delusional. it’s all fatal.
“Why is it that the life insurance company always asks if you’re a smoker, but never if you eat meat or how much time you spend in the sun?”
Maybe it’s because the immediate universal understanding of how unhealthy smoking is? Unlike red meat or sun exposure which a lot of people don’t know what is excessive and what is not.
I don’t know…
Cas, was that a joke?
i sort of started smoking a little when my brother came to visit in nov. i’m much happier now. cas makes it sound like i didn’t really quit from mar. ‘02 until nov. ‘04, which i did! however, whether i was smoking or not, i would always have been outraged by this. right, cas?
Ha ha ha…
No, actually. Being the unoppressive husband that I am, Kim started again not too long ago but has been relegated to smoking outside or in front of the fireplace at night. Otherwise there would be a mutiny of epic proportions started by Delphina. She’s already given Kim a lot of hell about this.
“i sort of started smoking a little when my brother came to visit.”
Man, the tone in that sentence sounds guilty as hell!
i just phrased it that way to make sure that everyone who knew me when i had a lit cigarette in my hand every waking minute would know that i haven’t returned to that. but you’re right, it does sound pretty apologist. i love smoking. i mean, when i got hired at camel they were like, you don’t have to be so gung ho, it’s all right! ha!
please explain where this guy is gonna get employees in MI if he’s weeding out all the smokers & fat people? bet the office parties will be a blast.
“it’s a 1 in 3 chance for smokers to develop health problems related to smoking. i’ll take those odds.”
Obviously not, or you wouldn’t have tried to quit.
“Maybe it’s because the immediate universal understanding of how unhealthy smoking is? Unlike red meat or sun exposure which a lot of people don’t know what is excessive and what is not.”
Good point. But I don’t think it’s the entire reason. It’s not as though the dangers of sun overexposure and excessive red meat consumption are totally unknown. Most people are aware, maybe just not AS aware as they are about smoking. Plus, smoking is far more stigmatized. Think about all the discimination against smokers that has been passed into law.
In Kim’s defense(?) I have to say that she isn’t a “quitter.” She stopped smoking each time that she was pregnant. Just after Hero was born Delphina(especially) and I kept up the pressure for her to stay away from smoking. It lasted a very long time, relatively speaking, and, again in Kim’s defense, she’s smoking much less now than she has before. This is good, but not the best option. Ah well, can’t have everything, eh?
Cas is right- i’m no quitter. i would never quit for anything but a desire for a healthy baby (& i’ve done it both times). Bring on the stigma, it just makes me want to smoke more.
i once saw on “behind the music” that john cougar mellancamp used to smoke 5 packs a day. i almost wrote him a fan letter after i heard that.
Kim, doesn’t smoking tip the odds of not seeing Hero and ‘Phina for as long as you could? I mean, lung cancer is a pretty selfish way to go…
Kim didn’t “sort of” start smoking when my uncle came. she smoked at least. (AT LEAST!) 2 times a day. Yes, she did quit for hero, but hey. Everyone should do that! I did give her a bunch of points. She smoked anyway. It bothers me, but not so much that i don’t love her. I will always love her. smoke, cancer, or just motherhood.
Wow, I sound like a dorkface in that comment up there.